Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 08 : 40 AM

Present:  Dr Yumna Moosa (Intern in Anaesthetics at Addington Hospital), Mr Mark Maritz (HOD Orthopaedics), Ms Jabu Mahaye (Orthopaedic Secretary), Mr Luke Reid (Yumna’s husband)

Meeting held to discuss Yumna’s concerns about a previous meeting with other senior doctors and propose a constructive ‘third-way’ to resolve their concerns about the comments she made in her HPCSA logbook

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[click on timestamps in text to skip to position in audio*]

Yumna:  Okay. Um… that meeting on Friday…

Maritz:  Ja…

Yumna:  I want to talk about it.

Maritz:  Ja.

Yumna: I also want to ask if in this meeting we can speak to each other as if I’m not an intern and you’re not a consultant…

Maritz: Of course.

Yumna: …and that we’re two people sitting here. Um…‘Cause I thought, particularly Dr Fabian, but everyone’s behaviour in that meeting was entirely unacceptable. I felt bullied and interrogated and threatened with ridiculous things. Um… ja. It shocked me, and surprised me and like, I don’t actually know where to take it from there.

Maritz: How did you feel threatened?

Yumna: [00:50] Um…the…. being told this was… that my conduct was bad, I was going to wreck my career, I was risking being sued… One of the things that also stood out that I also particularly wanted to chat to you directly about was… the first time I came to speak to you about Dr Jorge, one of the things you said to me was that I wasn’t the first person who complained. Do you remember saying that?

Maritz: Uhuh.

Yumna: Okay. So I’m not the first person who complained. But in that meeting I got told ‘One in 360 Dr Moosa. One in 360! No one has ever said anything like this before.’ What was that?

Maritz:  Mmm… ja. Look I mean I was not working here when I heard about it, so…

Yumna:  Okay…

Maritz: …I dunno. But that was what I’d heard from a previous consultant.

Yumna: Okay…

Maritz:  That… you know…there was no formal hearing or anything about that, you know, so…

Yumna: Okay. So if it’s not formal then it didn’t happen.

Maritz: No. It didn’t really happen if there was no formal hearing.

Yumna: Sho. Um… But then what that means is that this needs to become formal…

Maritz: [02:01] Okay…

Yumna: …because for me the thought of anyone… the idea that somebody might have been treated the way that I was, A, and somebody might be treated the way that I was on Friday in future, is entirely unacceptable.

Maritz: Look… the… the meeting was conducted with a labour relations officer there. And if she feels that that meeting was, you know, to your disadvantage she would have come told us, because she’s not on our side. She’s not here to protect me or Fabian or anybody.


Maritz: Drop it off at fourth floor. Or in theatre… on the third floor.

Yumna: Okay, I’ll message him.

…Okay so you were saying that?

Maritz: [03:00] So if you felt threatened. You know, we discussed that… you know, well… I dunno who threatened you. I was there. Nobody threatened you. I think…I think those allegations are… once again… you’re making serious allegations again.

Yumna: Well furthermore… okay so that’s during the meeting, and then after the meeting Dr Fabian pulled me aside in theatre and said to me, basically, ‘Your only way out of this is to lose your logbook, lie about it and start again.’ Yes, that happened.

Maritz: Well that’s not going to happen. I’m not tossing your logbook away. Definitely not. Look… ja… I mean… You need to decide what you wanna do with this thing. I get it from you, you wanna take it further.  But that’s up to you. I’m not saying you can’t, I’m not saying you should or you shouldn’t. It’s… as far as I’m concerned, this process has got… you know, nothing I do or say or whatever is gonna change what’s gonna happen.

Yumna: [04:10] Okay.

Maritz: Nothing. Nothing I do or can say is gonna change it.

Yumna: Well I was hoping that this conversation might change it. Because I was hoping that we could find a third path to taking it forward.

Maritz: What is..? Well I don’t know, I mean I’m not a… to tell you honestly I’m… that’s why we have to get a labour relations… coz this kind of thing I’m not familiar with. I don’t know the process. I don’t know. I don’t even know what the first two paths are, you know. Fabian and Dr Aron, like, they… they well-rehearsed in these things and they know the processes that follow. To tell you honestly, I don’t. I really don’t. And it just really upsets me when I think about it because…

Yumna: Sure.

Maritz: …I think it’s just a unnecessary thing that’s happened, I really do. And if I… if I knew… I mean I’m open for suggestions from your side, I don’t have any suggestions ‘cause I actually don’t know.

Yumna: [05:06] Well firstly I do have a couple of ideas. But before that, um… that story about ‘It’s not sexism unless every woman complains?’ And it’s not racism unless every black person complains, or person of a particular race group? And that story about, ‘You can’t comment on discriminatory practices if it’s not happening to you?’ Entirely false, wrong, not true, inaccurate. Everybody around that table, including the labour relations officer, was making that argument, which led me to feel that this negotiation was in bad faith. Because that is clear. It’s not a complicated… that’s not a complicated concept. That that’s not how these things work.

[05:54] So one of the ideas that I did have because I… I don’t want to spend the next three years having to come back to have, like, meetings and statements and courts and labour courts and things like that. I have better things to do also. But so… so if the people sitting around that table do actually believe that that is what sexism and that is what racism is and that is what sexual harassment is, then I want the department, everyone who was in that meeting, and Dr Jorge, to go through some training, to, like, learn about what this stuff is, and what it means and what is acceptable to do in the workplace, and not. Because it’s not just about what a group of people doesn’t complain about. That’s not enough. To say, ‘Well no one has formally complained because we’ve successfully bulled them into not complaining.’ That’s not enough. Like, there is a standard. We are in a country that has standards. So I think it’s worth trying to meet those standards of practice, not just be, like, ‘Well the people here haven’t complained.’

[06:58] So that was one of my ideas for what I think is a third option and why that would be of interest in terms of the logbook, is after those complaints I can then write, ‘They were dealt with seriously and I appreciate that.’ And then it’s done. And then if the HPCSA gets the logbook, like, there is sexism and racism in this country…


Maritz: How does it… how does it deal with the sexist comments you made in your email towards me?

Yumna: Do you really think those are sexist?

Maritz: Ja. It’s sexual harassment. As you admitted in that meeting.

Yumna: I don’t think it was sexual harassment. I apologised for making you uncomfortable.

Hey love, you can wait outside for me.

Visitor: Sorry?

Yumna: Uh…er… no, you’re not my love. He’s my love. Hehe…

Visitor: Oh. Ah. I’ll…

Maritz: Just wait for me, I’ll…

Yumna: Ja, he can wait for me.

Maritz: Okay, so you’re retracting that then?

Yumna: [08:00] Ja.

Maritz: Okay.

Yumna: Um… but I am very sorry that it… that it caused trouble that it might have caused. Um…and that I’m not retracting, but… but ja, I was just hoping for a third… third way.

Maritz: Look, my suggestion… so am I, so am I. I’ll be honest with you, so am I. My suggestion is to chat to Smah from Labour Relations and voice these… issues that you’ve got, with her. Because… and I’d bring Ms Mafunda in there as well…

Yumna: Who’s Ms Mafunda?

Maritz: The Head of HR.

Yumna: Ja?

Maritz: She’s an extra… I value her opinion and her… um… advice a lot. She’s a very intelligent lady…

Yumna: Okay.

Maritz: …with very, very good advice.

Yumna: Okay.

Maritz: I think it’s coz she’s an ex-teacher…

Yumna: Okay.

Maritz: …so she knows. So I would chat to them regarding that kind of thing. They have the email you sent me.

Yumna: [09:05] Ja.

Maritz: And its… you know that email has been doing the rounds because it is rude. The statements you made there were extremely disrespectful and rude to myself. I don’t think you can argue that…

Yumna: Sure. And I’m sorry about that.

Maritz: And I don’t know where that attack came from towards me personally, if you wanted to voice some opinions about the department, it’s fine, but that was a personal attack towards me. And it was very, very rude. So I have to also just let you know that.

Yumna: Absolutely.

Maritz: That was completely out of line. There’s different ways of saying things, there’s different ways of voicing what you want to say about a department. But to insult me directly wasn’t right. It’s not right.

Yumna: [09:59]And I’m sorry for being rude.

Maritz:  And I’ve got an open door, if you had any problems, you know, we’re here. We’re here to chat. I’m not here to victimise people, I’m really not. You know, I’m here to make sure that you get a good education and training in orthopaedics and… Coz when you’re on your own it’s tough, you know.

Yumna: Absolutely.

Maritz: In com-service, and you’re alone, in the bush, it’s not… it’s scary. It’s scary, I’ve been there. And I’m here to make people feel safe in orthopaedics. I’ve failed.

Yumna: And I maintain that the orthopaedics was good.

Maritz: I’ve failed in this situation, and it obviously makes one re-evaluate how you wanna train people. And I think the thing is, my policy has always been, ‘Protect the interns as much as possible when it comes to litigation,’ because if they do make mistakes clinically, ‘It’s my fault because I haven’t trained them properly’. But I think that’s probably the wrong option. The right thing to say is, ‘Well you guys are doctors as well, if you make clinical mistakes and, you know, you’re in a court of law, it’s not my ground to protect you’. Which is what a lot of the hospitals are doing now. They’re just saying, ‘Interns must protect themselves’. I don’t believe in that, I believe in protecting interns by teaching them, training them…

Yumna: [11:17] And that is absolutely clear.

Maritz: I dunno. I don’t think it is.

Yumna: That part is completely clear. At the same time I think there were a whole lot of things that happened, separate to that, that weren’t okay, and that is why one of the things I said in my logbook was, ‘I think this department knows very well how to fix bones, but not how to treat people.’ And it’s a terse line, but I think that reflects it.

Maritz: So you think I have no patient manner then?

Yumna: Patients aren’t the only people.

Maritz: So you think I don’t know how… me… You think Dr Rankin, you think Dr Sherpa, have no way… don’t know how to treat people? Coz what you’ve done is you’ve included the whole department there. And I can tell you now, they are…

Yumna: [12:05] I said people in this department.

Maritz: …they are very, very polite gentlemen.

Yumna: They are. I spoke to Rankin yesterday, and he was… I agree, he was extremely polite and extremely lovely.

Maritz: Dr Ansah-Meah. Fantastic lady.

Yumna: I’m intentionally not naming particular people’s names.

Maritz: But that’s the point, is that because you’re not naming particular people’s names in your logbook, we’re all involved.

Yumna: Okay…

Maritz: [12:40] We’re all involved. Because you called us… it’s the whole department… we’re all being deemed racist, sexist, can’t deal with… And I’ve unfortunately had to go to the council and chat to them and they said, ‘Look there’s been no finger-pointing in terms of names, you’re all implicated.’ You know… so… what has happened here is that you have a right to say what you want to say, and criticise. There’s a process that follows and it’s also how you do it. When you are gonna say, ‘Look there’s sexism,’ you’ve got to be very particular and say, ‘That person was sexist, on this day, this is what he said, duh duh duh duh…’ So very specific. But to say that the department is sexist or the department is racist, you’re pulling everybody in. You’re calling Jabu into that whole thing. The way you went about it was wrong. I’m not saying you were wrong to complain, you’ve got the right to complain. The way you went about it is wrong, and the implications of that are going to, you know, follow on. It’s not a threat. No one’s threatening you by saying that.

Yumna: Sure, sure.

Maritz: There are going to be repercussions from that. There are. It’s just the way it is. There are.

Yumna: [14:01] It’s true.

Maritz: It’s not a threat. And if Jonathan said that to you, well, I can’t speak for Jonathan. I don’t know what the way forward is, I really don’t. I really don’t. And I wish I could give you some advice but I’m not a… to tell you honestly I’m not a… I’m not a politician, I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know. I really don’t know.

Yumna: [14:28] Okay. Thanks for chatting though. A lot of this for me is about, like… figuring the space out and what I want to do, and this conversation actually did help me a lot in understanding… what’s going on. And it actually does make a difference… it makes a big difference for me that, basically you don’t feel ashamed for what happened on Friday. Because what happened was a junior staff member, rightly or wrongly, said that she experienced discrimination and what happened was for three hours, four members of her senior management at that hospital interrogated her. Like… you disagree with ‘threatened’… threatened, bullied, didn’t give me a chance to speak in that meeting, every time I tried to say something Dr Fabian interrupted me and said, ‘No but you said… No but you said…’ For three hours. That’s what happened.

Maritz: I said three sentences in that meeting.

Yumna: Sure. But you sat there and let Dr Fabian do that.

Maritz: I sat there as a witness to the meeting that was conducted in front of a labour relations officer.

Yumna: Okay. So you don’t feel responsible.

Maritz: [15:53] No. I disagree with what you’re saying. No one threatened you, Jabu was there, no one threatened you, no one interrogated you, there was no interrogation… You’re throwing words around very loosely, without knowing what the repercussions are. You’ve got to learn in life, every thing you say and do has a reaction.

Yumna: I’m learning that. That is what I’m learning…

Maritz: Ja. And I’m speaking from experience. I have been in your position, when I was a hot-headed registrar. Jabu will remember this. And I marched into somebody… one of the people here in this hospital, okay, and said things that were out of line. They were out of line. At the time I didn’t think so, and for the weeks that followed I didn’t think so, okay. It went to Council, okay, and I realised what I had said was not right.

Yumna: Sure.

Maritz: [16:55] Okay. I was fortunate because I then stood up and I said, ‘I realise what I said was wrong. Those words I threw around a bit loosely… incorrect, I apologise.’ And those guys were very good, they said ‘That’s fine, we understand, you were young, you didn’t understand, that’s why we accept your apology’. It’s not a nice position to be in. It’s not a nice position.

Yumna: Mmm. Absolutely.

Maritz: And I’ve learnt since then, you know… don’t always be on the attack. Don’t always be on the attack. And not… not everyone is always attacking you. It’s always very easy to feel that you’ve been victimised or been attacked, but sometimes step back and say, ‘Am I being victimised in this situation? Am I really? Or are people trying to help me see another point of view here’.

Yumna: [17:50] Mmm. Cool. Thank you. And… so I’m going to go on leave, and then we’ll have our second informal meeting. I’ve… I’ve asked Dr Rankin to come to that meeting, I’ll just… I’ll obviously send a group… a message to everyone to see if that’s okay. And, or one of the interns, if one of them are prepared to come. I’ve asked Dr Makan, she disagrees with me about Jorge, but…

Maritz: Who’s Dr Makan?

Yumna: Nisha?

Maritz: Ja.

Yumna: But she’s also a friend of mine so it would just be nice to have her there so that I don’t feel quite so alone. But we’ll arrange that closer to the time. Okay?

Maritz: That’s fine with me. That’s fine.

Yumna: Okay. Thanks.

Maritz: Ja, but… that’s entirely fine. If I can make a suggestion, I think you probably need to go and speak to Smah today…

Yumna: Okay.

Maritz: [18:53] …and Dr Fabian and Dr Aron and let them know what you said to me now, that you felt threatened, interrogated and all of those things in that meeting.

Yumna: I will. Um… my intention is to put… I’m going to put it all in writing now because I think that was part of the problem with the logbook, and I didn’t expand on it. So that was the problem, I am completely… I agree, I shouldn’t have written point form in that logbook. What I should have done is written in detail what my complaints were.

Maritz: No. There’s a process. There’s a process that get’s followed before you write stuff like that in a logbook. There are… there are Department of Health conflict resolution guidelines.

Yumna: Sure.

Maritz: Okay, and when you start going for interviews later, especially at a junior MO level and what what, one of the… one of the most common questions that are asked in an infu… in interviews… ‘How do you resolve conflict in the workplace?’

Yumna: [19:59] Ja.

Maritz: Okay. And it’s quite clearly put out on the Department of Health’s website and that. But there’s certain steps that are followed, okay. You… you can’t just jump it and go to council, okay. Council will frown on that as well. They’ll say, ‘Was a process followed?’ And it hasn’t.

Yumna: But I also think a very reasonable argument can be made that when I tried to follow other processes, that they didn’t seem like they were going anywhere.

Maritz: What processes?

Yumna: I spoke to both Dr Jorge and to you Mr Maritz.

Maritz: Yes. And I asked you, ‘Would you like to take this further and have a meeting with him?’ And your response was ‘No. Can you just speak to him.’ And that is what I did.

Yumna: [20:51] I hear… I don’t think you’re lying about that. I just don’t remember that. But I don’t think you’re lying. What I remember was two things: I remember you saying to me that he wasn’t the first person, number one, and, number two, you think it’s a personality or a cultural or a Cuban thing. And it was a sort of five, ten minute conversation, a lot of things were said… I didn’t think it was a big deal conversation, that conversation actually put me at ease, because you said that I wasn’t the first person to complain, it put me at ease.

Maritz: Ja, that’s why it was a big surprise when you suddenly made a report to Council. It put me at ease as well. I thought, ‘Okay, well, it seems like we’re gonna… you know…’ If the problem persisted you should have come to me.

Yumna: I’m sorry I didn’t do that.

Maritz: You know and I would have… we could have had a sit down, formal meeting. We could have had… spoken to Jorge and say, ‘Right Jorge, this is what you’re doing wrong now, this has to stop.’

Yumna: Sure, and that isn’t how it played out, what for me… rightly or wrongly, my rude email was intended as that.

Maritz: [22:02] No, don’t… don’t do that to me. Don’t… rude… it’s in black and white. Alright. Don’t… don’t insult me here in my room in front of Jabu, okay? It’s….You…You’re getting a little bit out of line here.

Mahaye: Sorry, Moosa…

Yumna: It’s not… it’s not my intention.

Mahaye: From the day you spoke with Mr Maritz, if you was not happy about what he did, you was supposed to go to Dr Aron. Dr Aron is here for everybody to protect you, or to guide you.

Yumna: Sure.

Mahaye: You was supposed to go to Dr Aron. Also if you were not … you were supposed to follow the protocols or the procedure. If you was also not happy from what Dr Aron told you, you was supposed to go to HR. Then from there, even HR, to the HOD, to the CEO. This is a house now. You was supposed to take it from within… from inside, not to just write it then. That book is for outsiders.

Yumna:  [23:09] Okay, and…

Mahaye:   I’m just a…

Yumna: Someone who knows the system.

Mahaye: …a secretary, but some of the things I know.

Yumna: Yes. And you do have a lot of experience.

Mahaye: You was supposed to follow the correct procedure.

Yumna: Sure.

Mahaye: Now it looks like you are all by yourself, because you didn’t follow the correct procedure.

Yumna: Sure, I didn’t follow…

Mahaye: I also, as a secretary, I also didn’t read things like that. Even if you are sick, sometimes you don’t… you are supposed to report to me. But some of the people they don’t report to me. Later on they come back to me. I’m down there, but the work that I’m doing, I’m dealing with a lot of things. Ja…. So that’s the problem. It started from there.

Yumna: Sure.

Mahaye: [23:57] Now it’s in black and white, you can’t change it. No. You see?

Yumna: Absolutely. No I definitely feel I have a better understanding of the situation, and, ja… we’ll see where it goes and I appreciate talking today.

Maritz: Listen, have you handed in sick leave for those three days that you weren’t here?

Yumna: To HR… but I’ll hand it in to Jabu, I can do it tomorrow, I have a doctor’s certificate, if that’s okay?

Mahaye: HR to whom?

Yumna: To Debbie.

Maritz: You handed it in, you said?

Mahaye: When?

Yumna: I filled it in there…

Maritz: No.

Yumna: No? Okay, I’ll do it tomorrow.

Maritz: Why hasn’t it been done?

Yumna: Maybe it got lost? I stood there, I was with Debbie. I filled it in, like, next to her, on her table.

Mahaye: When was that?

Maritz: When was that?

Yumna: During…

Mahaye: Because… You know what, Moosa? From… you was not supposed to hand it down, you was supposed to hand it to me, so I can give it to Mr Maritz to sign it.

Yumna: Sure…

Mahaye: I am the one who’s taking leave forms to HR.

Yumna: I can do it today if you like.

Mahaye: [24:57] In the book… so your name is not there.

Yumna: I’ll do it today.

Mahaye: Even the annual leave. Sometimes… okay I’m not dealing with annual leave, but from Debbie it comes to Mr Maritz to approve it.

Yumna: Okay.

Mahaye: So your leave… no one knows.

Yumna: Annual or sick or both?

Maritz: Well, the sick leave I have not received.

Yumna: Okay, you’ll receive it today.

Maritz: Ja… because, you know, now there’s little mutterings going round about dereliction of duty.

Yumna: Okay. I can sort that out today, I’ve got the doctor’s note. And I’ve… I got seen by a doctor at Polyclinic, so she can also… confirm that. But I can definitely sort that out.

Mahaye: And you must know Moosa, because it’s late now… When was that?

Yumna: It is late. I apologise for that.

Maritz: It’s very late.

Mahaye: You have to…

Yumna: It is very late.

Mahaye: Because now Mr Maritz can’t sign that leave, because it’s long overdue. If you are sick it’s… you must give the sick leave form within five days. So no one has…

Yumna: [26:04] Okay, I showed it to Dr Jorge, who saw it, who would probably forget to have seen it now…

Maritz: No, he never gets them.

Yumna: Sure. He told me to give it to Jabu, I didn’t give it to him that day.

Maritz: I have the HR email trail. Nothing has been received. By them or from yourself.

Yumna: Okay, I’ll submit it today, if there’s a problem with signing it, there’s a problem with signing it.

Maritz: Well, it is late.

Yumna: Sure. That’s fine.

Maritz: Ja, so…

Yumna: So I’ll submit it, and it’s late, and we can deal with that as a other procedure as well. If it’s dereliction of duty, if I get two few days leave, I don’t know how that works either, but I will investigate that. And anything you need me to do, if you need me to come back for two days in orthopaedics, we can…

Maritz: No… no that process gets…

Mahaye: It’s HR.

Maritz: It’s a process that follows…

Yumna: It’s HR, okay. Great.

Mahaye: [26:58] But what I can say, if you are not sure about anything, you need to ask.

Yumna: Yes. Absolutely.

Mahaye: In future, just ask how to do this and that and that. To the right people.

Yumna: To the right people. So on that note, just so that we can…

Mahaye: You’ve got Dr Aron. Dr Aron is the right person for you. Of anything. You can go to her, or you can go to Debbie down there, or Noleen, they will guide you, if you’ve got questions.

Yumna: So just thinking of asking… on the HR thing, what would you like me to do about the sick leave and annual leave form?

Maritz: As I say, all I can tell you is that you have not handed in your leave form for when you weren’t here.

Yumna: Okay.

Maritz: That’s all I can tell you.

Yumna: And what would you like me to do about it?

Maritz: I’m not an HR manager…

Yumna: So I must got to Debbie and ask her.

Maritz: So… so…

Mahaye: Even your file… it’s Noleen who’s doing your file.

Yumna: Noleen. So I must go to Noleen and…

Maritz: So why would you have handed it in to Debbie?

Yumna: Just coz I know Debbie.

Maritz: But she doesn’t deal with your file.

Yumna: [27:58] I’ve only ever spoken to her in HR.

Maritz: Debbie doesn’t deal with your…

Mahaye: No even Debbie, Debbie didn’t receive anything. She was copied. She didn’t receive anything.

Yumna: Fine.

Maritz: No, it’s not fine. Not fine. You were absent without leave.

Yumna: And so I can fix it now.

Maritz: Well let’s hope you can.

Yumna: Let’s hope I can. Because I feel like I was legitimately absent because I saw a doctor and had a sick note.

Maritz: I would have been legitimate if you came and you spoke to me as your head of department… why you were sick, alright, and handed me a written excuse, a letter from a doctor or whatever. That would have made it legitimate.

Yumna: Yes. I spoke to Dr Jorge. I thought that was legitimate, it was not, and also then that was…

Maritz: So you’re undermining my authority in this department, is that what you’re doing?

Yumna: [28:50] It was never my intention, but if that’s what I did, that can also follow its resolution process… which there are… but okay, that’s fine, I have a good sense of how things are, and thank you very much, both of you for speaking to me. I just need to get this thing to…

Reid: Do you mind if I have a quick chat with Dr Maritz, just to say a couple of things?

Maritz: Uh…no.

Yumna: I don’t think he wants to.

Reid: It might be in your interest. It’s purely… I think they’ve offered you a lot of advice, and…

Yumna: Ja.

Maritz: I’ve offered no advice.

Reid: Well, about the sick leave, about the things, about the things…

Maritz: Well that’s a separate issue.

Yumna: Ja. It’s a separate issue.

Maritz: Completely separate issue.

Yumna: It is a separate issue.

Maritz: I was quite clear, I said I don’t have advice on the matter, I don’t.

Reid: Sure.

Maritz: I don’t know anything. I don’t.

Reid: Okay. Okay.

Maritz: I’m not an HR manager, I’m not anything of the sort. So… I’m not a politician, I’m an orthopaedic surgeon. Alright, so I don’t know how to deal with those matters. My advice was perhaps go and speak to the labour relations and Dr Aron about these issues.

Reid: [30:01] I do feel like you should give them… I feel like the fair thing is to give you a little bit of advice. From our side.

Maritz: I don’t want…

Yumna: I don’t think he wants it from you.

Maritz: …thank you very much though, okay.

Reid: Okay. It’s… it’s a warning, and…

Yumna: No its not…. ssshh… ssshh…sshh…

Maritz: Oh a warning. What warning is that?

Reid: And really…. I think its fair Yushks [sic], I think its fair.

Yumna: Gosh. Man games.

Reid: It’s not a man game. I… I… This is coming from me wanting to play straight.

Maritz: Its fine. Now tell me which warning it is you want to give me?

Reid: And it’s going to sound like a threat…

Maritz: Yep.

Reid: And can I explicitly say that it’s not meant to be a threat. It’s wanting to play fair. Because you may have got the wrong idea about my wife. She is very sweet, and she speaks very nicely, but she is very stubborn… And we have… we are… we are very clear… I say… by we I mean her and a large community of friends behind her, that she is in the right. Her friends include multiple constitutional court lawyers, news editors…

Yumna: [30:20] No, you’re upset, let’s go…

Mahaye: But now why are you saying that to…

Reid: …news editors in every single major newspaper in this country…

Yumna: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no…

Reid: …and I’m not threatening you and I’m not saying we’re going to do anything like that.

Yumna: …no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no…

Maritz: You are threatening me.

Yumna: No sweet love.

Reid: I…

Yumna: No sweet love, you need to stop now. You need to listen to me… my sweet love…

Reid: I just want to say…

Mahaye: Just leave now. Please.

Reid: Yes…

Yumna: Sweetheart… I agree.

Mahaye: Just leave.

Maritz: The point has been taken.

Mahaye:  Because you are not supposed to say all these things to Mr Maritz.

Reid:  Sure, I’m not supposed to…  I want to help, I don’t want this thing to go crazy.

Yumna:  I don’t want this. I don’t want this.

Maritz:  …you threatened me.

Yumna:  I don’t want this.

Reid:  I explained to you…

Maritz:  It will be noted.

Reid:  Sure, that’s fine.

Maritz:  [32:00] Uninvited, you walked into my office, and you threatened me.

Reid:  Sure. If you want to see it like that, but you’re being extremely aggressive.

Maritz:  But you said it. It’s a threat.

Reid:  Sure. And can it be noted that you are being extremely aggressive.

[Door slams]

Yumna:  I think that was not…

Reid:  A mistake.

Yumna:  That was a mistake.

Reid:  Sure.

Yumna:  And that was not in our best interests. Okay. Sorry about that Jabu.

[Door slams]

Mahaye:  Ja, it was a mistake, to…